[TOWN WINS] Third Anniversary Fanfic Mafia - Game Thread

[Chibi Pika]

Jet looked down. She'd been expecting this moment to feel cool and triumphant. It didn't feel triumphant at all.

[[I wanna kinda step back from the game a bit and say that you're not a shitty mafia player at all Pano. To the contrary, I think you played quite well. There's been a huge amount of bad luck that led to this outcome. I know that if I ever roll scum, I'll want to get voted because someone found holes in my logic, not because... process of elim says that nothing else works I guess.

Maybe it might make all of this feel less arbitrary and arcane if I run through the case from beginning to end? It's a numbers game. In order for Steven to be innocent...

- Scum has to have no roleblocker, which means they really should have some other disruption.
- Dawning would be the only viable candidate, but the Muse/Lurosa swap has no plausible scum motivation, nor does using Thief on Tetra.
- Tetra is confirmed Vig unless scum has a weird oneoff kill instead of any useful disruptions.
- 3-man scumteam rules out Archie because it's too underpowered. 4-man scumteam brings us right back to the numbers issue of not enough suspects.
- Mafia!inke requires both a legendarily convincing scum theater with Kichiro, plus the precognition that not only backup, but also cop wouldn't be counterclaimed.
- Dragonfree is the least confirmed, but she made a consistent case against Kichiro. Also, I believe that she knew NeoLurosa was fruit vendor, and I don't think mafia!Dragonfree would have taken out them vs "Chibi parading around an ambiguous inforole" or "Inke softclaiming something super cool." Also also, she didn't try to leave the door open to get me lynched, which she really would have needed to do if she were scum. This convinced me, because I know I'm innocent, but from town!Steven's point of view, he ought to be concerned about me and Dragonfree working together. (Naturally, each of us knows that we're not a scumteam, so it's not an option that we would ever consider.)
- I'm also pretty lacking in confirmation since most of my track log just confirms Steven and Altair's actions.

Therefore:

- Steven really, really should be trying to convince us that the scumteam is me/Dragonfree. There are logic holes with this, of course, seeing as it's not true. But it's less obvious in its wrongness than the other configs, so it would be worth a shot.
- Continuing to block a player who'd softclaimed something that would be hype about the strongman being spent (likely an inforole) and who had been consistently and aggressively targeting the only confirmed mafia all game is just unfortunately very suboptimal for town, and very logical for mafia.
- The insistence that the gamestate is just too uncertain to make solid reads, despite the fact that we actually have a large amount of info, is an attempt to make us doubt our existing judgments.
- The insistence that the truth must be far stranger than what the facts are pointing to is a way to make us forget just how much information we have.
- The lack of trying to find that strange truth, or come up with an alternate gamesolve points to the knowledge that there is no alternate gamesolve. The wincon for Steven isn't to find that truth. The wincon is to not get lynched.

It really sucks. Eliminating mafia through process-of-elim feels almost dirty. I didn't like doing it in Vanilla Mafia. I townread Hazel right up until the point that the numbers said she just plain couldn't be town.]]

 

[Dragonfree]

[[Doesn't anyone, regardless of role, feel safer once the strongman shot is used? I definitely didn't assume any specific sort of role hinting from the comment other than "this is good, now our protective roles won't be bypassed any more." I'm not sure any of my logic is going to actually make sense to anyone since the whole basis of my play was off the flawed list of roles I assumed would respond to the block in any number of ways. I swear to you that regardless of alignment this is honest to god my train of thought for this play and if it means I'm the world's shittiest Mafia player than so be it.]]

[[I'm not saying that can't have been your train of thought! I thought of something that could have made this make more sense, because I'd thought is, so I fished for whether that might have been it, but it wasn't. Something that could have been slightly exonerating evidence wasn't, that's all.

I didn't bring it up yesterday because I wanted to give Pano a bit more time, but yeah, the fact she's been fixated solely on justifying her own actions since coming under fire, rather than making any effort to figure out who is actually the mafia if it isn't you, is also kind of telling. It's easy to do that, especially if you're being interrogated about things that you genuinely just didn't think of that way, but it's something else that makes me feel surer about my vote.

I'm sorry, Pano! You haven't been a terrible player at all, everyone makes mistakes in mafia, and it's okay. <3 And of course, please dunk on us if you really are town.]]

 

[Starlight Aurate]

[[Pano, I'm really sorry that you feel this way. You're not a terrible player at all! I think everyone universally agreed that you had the BEST night actions in Overdrive Mafia. I've shared a lot of the same frustrations you've voiced in this thread. I simply don't have the same townreads that everyone else does. I thought my role was super powerful until others told me that it's actually near-useless and I've been consistently using it poorly. We all make mistakes, and that's okay. I readily admit that I've played awfully this game. Please don't feel bad!

Steven really, really should be trying to convince us that the scumteam is me/Dragonfree.

[[I've been pushing Chibi for being scum for days now but nobody has had any interest. Am I missing something? I haven't gotten the same hard townreads for Jet that everyone else has and I feel like my thoughts have mostly been ignored. Granted, I started the entire mailman debacle and made a mess of it... But then I don't know what to do! If not Chibi and Free, does anyone else have potential scum targets? Inke's gunning for Virgil makes me think they're not mafia buds at all. Tetra most certainly shot Abra which fits with her vigilante claim (granted, it could be a second Mafia killing power? Or a TP disguising as a town vig?). Bench... I mean I don't have much to say about him, his claim isn't falsifiable but I think he's been honest and I really don't want him to drop out (yeah I have a soft spot for people when they get down, I know it's a weakness but I really just want everyone to have fun). DW COULD be a TP survivor? Could be a JOAT for Mafia and just telling the truth in a way that covers herself. If not Chibi/Free as mafia buds then I don't know who to poke.]]

 

[Dragonfree]

[[Why don’t you think it’s us, Starlight?]]

 

[Panoramic_Vacuum]

I didn't bring it up yesterday because I wanted to give Pano a bit more time, but yeah, the fact she's been fixated solely on justifying her own actions since coming under fire, rather than making any effort to figure out who is actually the mafia if it isn't you, is also kind of telling. It's easy to do that, especially if you're being interrogated about things that you genuinely just didn't think of that way, but it's something else that makes me feel surer about my vote

[[Really not sure what to make of this because I have made it known who I've been suspicious of, but I've been told they're basically lock town so if I kept pushing that'd be scummy too. (At this point I'm convinced anything I do is scummy, see my insistence on Chibi's play in my earlier post. They have outright said it was intentionally scummy and when I said as much I got shot down by three different people so I don't really know anymore)

Also pretty sure everyone was using Sind's extensive defense of herself as a scum tell and look how that turned out. So I'm damned if I do, damned if I don't. Trying to make this a learning moment but I just end up more confused.

"You should have done X."
Me: "I thought X was a scum tell from last game, so I did Y because it's not like X"
"Ah but you see Y is the scummiest tell of them all and X is not scummy if used by town players."
Me: 🤔

I just very vividly remember in other games almost every cornered scum player will get mad, point a finger at someone, and that's been called out as a scum tell. Almost every game. I used it as a scum tell myself in other games. But because I haven't done those things I'm scummy and I really should have done those things and lol I really don't know any more.

Just feels like there's no win here because anything I do will be countered with "why didn't you do x". I don't know. I wish I did know. I wish other people were as paranoid and uncertain as I am when I play these games. I wish I didn't somehow internalize all the wrong things to do, because boy it sure seems like I have.]]

 

[Dragonfree]

[[Well, let’s back up a bit, away from the weird self-referential maze of “townies should do things that are not scummy”. Trying to do things that are not scummy is fair, we all do it, I’ve done it in this game. But. The actual objective of the game, for town, is not to not look scummy. The objective of the game is to find the mafia!

If someone decreed it was scummy to keep trying to find the mafia when you’re being accused, well, that’s just a very unproductive arbitrary restriction that’s going to be bad for achieving town’s win condition. So anyone who calls that in itself scummy, I’m calling bullshit. On the other hand, sure, there is such a thing as accusing someone else in a scummy way when you’re under suspicion - that might be when it doesn’t sound like you really believe it, say, but more like you’re just trying to deflect suspicion at whoever might stick.

But none of this is an exact science! Actual townies do things that seem scummy all the time, and sometimes scum do things that seem super towny. Ultimately, though, we must ground any standard of what is “scummy” or “towny” in the fact scum and town have different win conditions and thus different incentives and motivations - not in expecting all townies to behave in X manner and all scum to behave in Y manner. Sind was super defensive but still town; doesn’t mean being defensive is towny now, just that sometimes town absolutely do things that are more typical for scum, and that’s just the way this game is.

(In a future game with Sind, though, I’d probably account for the fact she’s turned out to be town while being very defensive before. I wrongly scumread Yellow on a similar basis before, and would be more cautious to scumread that from her in a future game. Similarly, I would have felt worse about Chibi’s play here if not for that they’ve played very similarly as town before! We’re all just trying our best to read people which is something humans are known to be bad at, and we’re going to be wrong sometimes. And sometimes you’re right but everyone else is wrong! Like, if you suspect Chibi, don’t just drop it when no one bites! Engage with what other people are saying about them, think through whether their objections make sense to you, whether your argument still makes sense to you given new information, and update accordingly, as well as updating thoughts on other players. Sometimes someone who’s considered locktown was mafia all along. I have been town when the process of elimination was down to me being the “only possible” last mafia.)]]

 

[Dragonfree]

[[For what it’s worth I’m paranoid all the time. At the start of this day I expressed significant paranoia about Chibi; I’m kind of surprised neither you nor Starlight took an interest in my thoughts there. I’m not remotely certain about Chibi or DW and part of my brain is still preparing to congratulate them on bamboozling us. I’ve still got mafia vig Tetra in my head. But right now I’m significantly more suspicious of you and Starlight.]]

 

[Panoramic_Vacuum]

Like, if you suspect Chibi, don’t just drop it when no one bites! Engage with what other people are saying about them, think through whether their objections make sense to you, whether your argument still makes sense to you given new information, and update accordingly, as well as updating thoughts on other players.

[[See it wasn't that nobody bit, it's that I got yelled at by several people that I was wrong and the play that made me (and you, it seems) nervous was 100% towny and I was ridiculous for thinking otherwise. What am I supposed to do in the face of that? I had no information to dispute it other than a hunch and an incredible amount of paranoia (because I clearly don't understand these things), so I had to back down. But then because I backed down that made me scummy? After getting yelled at and having nothing more than a hunch? And now if I had kept going despite having no evidence to support my argument that was the optimal towny play? I don't understand this lol. I think I'll just resign myself to always being scummy in the eyes of most people and hope I land a role that isn't an insta sus, bc otherwise I'm screwed.]]

 

[Panoramic_Vacuum]

[[also despite my saltiness please know I am having this discussion in good faith. I *want* to learn how to play this game, but I am genuinely confused on how to approach these situations. When attempting to apply things I've learned in other games, only to be told "no it's different when you do it" and then being left to wonder why is not a good feeling.]]

 

[Flyg0n]

[[Hm. I'll admit I'm a bit perplexed. I have, to be fair, found myself feeling similar but then its a game of mafia, and I have to remind myself that feelings in mafia do not carry over to real life.

I've caught myself feeling defensive and upset because I'm being criticized for something that from my perspective seems perfectly reasonable. I don't think anyone is yelling at you perse, its the natural flow of mafia that arguements and counter arguments will happen, and that defenses will be made and often not believed, or sometimes believed.

The fact this happens one way or the other isn't necessairly 100% indicative of bad play, its humans trying their best to make reads (See the Sind incident, with many people being certain Sind was some form of scum mailman, regardless of how she made her defense.

I think sometimes judgements are made with the best educated guesses and those can just be wrong, and that someone isn't really a bad player, bad things and mistakes just happen.

You're not a bad player, this is how the things are shaking out.]]

 

[Panoramic_Vacuum]

[[Hm. I'll admit I'm a bit perplexed. I have, to be fair, found myself feeling similar but then its a game of mafia, and I have to remind myself that feelings in mafia do not carry over to real life.

I've caught myself feeling defensive and upset because I'm being criticized for something that from my perspective seems perfectly reasonable. I don't think anyone is yelling at you perse, its the natural flow of mafia that arguements and counter arguments will happen, and that defenses will be made and often not believed, or sometimes believed.

The fact this happens one way or the other isn't necessairly 100% indicative of bad play, its humans trying their best to make reads (See the Sind incident, with many people being certain Sind was some form of scum mailman, regardless of how she made her defense.

I think sometimes judgements are made with the best educated guesses and those can just be wrong, and that someone isn't really a bad player, bad things and mistakes just happen.

You're not a bad player, this is how the things are shaking out.]]

[[Ah sorry the incident I'm referring to is much earlier in the game, not right now. I very much understand what is happening now lol.

I'm on mobile otherwise I'd go fetch the quotes but the at the time the tone of the responses to my inquiries was not what I was expecting and was rather taken aback at the time.

I've been trying to figure out why that was the case ever since, and that frustration is coming to a head here. It's one of those "preventable but only in hindsight" things that I'm trying to understand how to do that when it's not too late, as it is now.]]

 

[Flyg0n]

[[Ah sorry the incident I'm referring to is much earlier in the game, not right now. I very much understand what is happening now lol.

I'm on mobile otherwise I'd go fetch the quotes but the at the time the tone of the responses to my inquiries was not what I was expecting and was rather taken aback at the time.

I've been trying to figure out why that was the case ever since, and that frustration is coming to a head here. It's one of those "preventable but only in hindsight" things that I'm trying to understand how to do that when it's not too late, as it is now.]]

[[Ah I see. I do sympathize a lot, as someone who often feels very perplexed by how to play mafia and what good plays are/how to do it right.

I will say that I think the principle is the same. You're not bad and I don't think its personal per se, it seems more like just. Mafia is so inexact, things change based on who is playing and what powers are at stake and how people say them and which people say them. A lot of TR meta is based around guessing at playstyles in tandem with roles and things can get messy.

Like Free and Chibi have echoed this whole game has been peculiarly null compared to other games. its just how the game goes, some people will disagree with takes radically or counter an arguement based on whatever they believe already. Every game is so different, you know?

Sometimes things happen and as I've said to other friends getting mislynched as town or lynched as mafia or caught as TP or whatever happens can be due to so many factors in mafia that this isn't really broadly indicative of play, or specific things that are bad, if that makes sense, you know? Mafia is a game where its possible to do well and still have things happen, mistake or not.]]

 

[Chibi Pika]

[[I thought of something else that might help. There are a couple reasons why the same action take by two different players might imply very different things:

- Gamestate
- Information level
- Player temperament

There is no such thing as "X action is scummy" or Y action is towny" because it depends on the context. To illustrate that, I want to lay out all the reasons this situation is very different from the situation with Sind on Day 2:

- We are in a very high-information gamestate now, vs with Sind on day 2. All the cards are on the table, so to speak.
- Sind really did have no choice but to defend herself because "finding the truth" just wasn't an option in such a low-info gamestate.
- The only information Sind had ("I am a mailman") is very different than the information that Pano has ("I am a roleblocker"). The latter allows for quite a lot of conjecture to be made about the hypothetical setup that would even allow for a town roleblocker.
- Sind very often describes herself as being cheerfully clueless about the gamestate, even when we're in a high-info state. She's been very open about this, as either alignment! Whereas I see Pano as one of the most observant players we have. There were multiple times, in both Vanilla and the banquet, where Pano noticed an extremely subtle softclaim that I was completely oblivious to. Now, that's not to say that "if you do well in one game, you're mandated to galaxy brain all the time forever." I just feel like, with the gamestate as it is, there'd be some room to get... something.
- And again, I want to point to where I completely and utterly misread Pano in the Banquet... because I was missing the piece of information: "Pano is an inforole playing a gambit."

It's a lot of varables to juggle! I try my best to keep all of them in the air, but I screw up plenty. I failed to consider that what may have looked like a very obvious inforole softclaim from me, only looked that way because of information I had, and probably didn't remotely register to Sind at all. I made this mistake because the one other time (2nd anni) I did leak the tiniest bit of info (the implication that someone might not have been blocked), the mafia noticed instantly and killed me. But that was a mafia run by Namo! Very different situation. Inke was mafia in that game. She knows better than anyone that even implying knowledge of blocks or lack thereof can be a death sentence. There's so much to consider.

And like Dragonfree said, if we're wrong, be prepared to dunk on us mercilessly.]]

 

[Chibi Pika]

[[I think I've said everything I need to. The last thing I wanted to do was come up with a night action plan. How does this look?

- Dragonfree heals Inke
- Inke inspects Chibi
- Chibi tracks Bench
- Bench protects Chibi
- Starlight mails Bench
- Dawning forces someone's target?

I thiiiiink this lines up such that any suspicious night results will be readily apparent. I realize that a large amount of this hinges on Inke being trustworthy, which I believe she is. Let me know if anyone has any other suggestions.]]

vote: end day

 

[Panoramic_Vacuum]

And like Dragonfree said, if we're wrong, be prepared to dunk on us mercilessly.]]

[[Haha gods I wish. Though I think I've done enough dunking in this game already (sorry Inke).]]

From a distance, Steven watched with distaste as Archie went to town on the facsimile of himself. It was a neat trick, learning how to shape the void into a copy of himself. It was a bit more difficult than creating the small cavern he spent his nights in, but worth the effort, clearly. He raised a hand to his cheek where the bruises had been...

The void-self had done a good enough job at defending him. They were made from the same thoughts and feelings, after all. But when the discussion had turned to the kind of diplomacy Team Aqua seemed to favor, he'd seen enough.

Steven relaxed his concentration, and the void clone melted from beneath the meathead pirate's fists, becoming one with the white nothingness from which it was made.

"I'm sorry you had to see that," Steven said, loud enough to catch the group's attention. "Again," he muttered to himself as they all turned toward him.

"I do apologize for dragging this out so long. I had wanted to end this sooner, but my associates were having too much fun." There was a sour tone to the last word.

"But I offer you my congratulations, you've done it. You've found the culprit."

He gave the group a light round of applause with a genuine smile on his face.

"In the spirit of keeping things moving, I'm sure no one will object to ending the day early? I've already taken up enough of your time, and I've learned as much as I can from all this. The claims were enlightening, to say the least. Thank you for satisfying my curiosity, and best of luck in the coming nights."

Vote: Panoramic_Vacuum
Vote: End Day

 

[Panoramic_Vacuum]

[[also sorry I had this ready to go earlier but I had no idea if there was a day end mechanic and didn't want to fuck that up too lol]]

 

[Flyg0n]

[[Vote: end day]]

 

[Chibi Pika]

Jet paused for a moment before extending a paw to the human with the silver hair, before the floor could melt and pull him away.


"Hey, you ain't half bad."

 

[Inkedust]

I made this mistake because the one other time (2nd anni) I did leak the tiniest bit of info (the implication that someone might not have been blocked), the mafia noticed instantly and killed me. But that was a mafia run by Namo! Very different situation. Inke was mafia in that game. She knows better than anyone that even implying knowledge of blocks or lack thereof can be a death sentence.

[[I don't have much more to add, but I wanted to point out here that I recall being the one who clued into that because I was that game's blocker, panicked, and alerted the rest of the Mafia. So yeah, experience there is pretty much the reason that my playstyle - in any Mafia game, really - involves keeping my cards close to my chest, especially if it's something big, like a major power role.

- Dragonfree heals Inke
- Inke inspects Chibi
- Chibi tracks Bench
- Bench protects Chibi
- Starlight mails Bench
- Dawning forces someone's target?

Anyway, I'm down to follow this plan of action. Not much left to add here other than I guess...
End the Day]]

 

[IFBench]

[[End Day]]