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[Town victory] Vanilla Mafia!

Shiny Phantump

Through Dream, I Travel
Location
Hallownest
Pronouns
She/Her
Partners
  1. sylveon
  2. absol-mega
  3. silvally-psychic
  4. ninetales-phantump
  5. cosmog
  6. gallade-phantump
  7. ceruledge-phantump
"I think this idea that people who don't cough up all their secrets immediately are suspicious is very stupid. How do you catch people in a lie if you come forward with all the truthful information immediately? You people insisting on that are either way too excited about catching people out for suspicious timing as if you were experts on suspicious timing, or you have another reason to persuade all the town to give up everything they know immediately."

Hazel nodded. "Thank you Salem, I agree."

08_Grumpy.png "I think it is odd that we are confused about why the robot did not tell us what their note said earlier," Hazel mused, "I think the robot should not have told us at all. Giving us the clue also tells us another thing: That you are not one of the people with a power."

"We have told our people to keep their powers secret for as long as they can. The bad people will be trying to guess who they are. Every person who says the don't have a power makes that guess easier and easier to make! That is why I did not want to say I had no power until I had to explain how I knew who got the notes, as if it could not just be inferred by paying attention."



[[Read: Telling us what your vanilla note/hint is means you're also roleclaiming. So, uhh, don't do it unless it helps us, or you need to in order to avoid getting lynched.

Please do not put all the cards on the table. Telling the Mafia too much is the best gift you can give them, imo. That's kinda the tricky thing about Mafia, you want to half solve the puzzle. You not only need to work out who they are, you have to do it before they can figure out who your critical players are and eliminate them. Even though they're inevitably going to get some information out of us, we still want to minimize the amount of their puzzle we solve for them.

Also, I am very confused by the OSBP play because... The mafia is not going to target you if you help them kill people at random? That seems like a worse misplay than any other possibility we had considered before. hhhhhhhhh.... I'll be around more before EoD if I need to change my vote. If we do genuinely believe they're both innocent than I suppose we abstain tonight, but... I'm not quite persuaded. But I'm not strictly eliminating the possibilty it's true either... I just... jkfdbsakjgbdsklnfklahdkghkldsajfklndsklghdsklafnkldsbgkldnsklg.]]
 

Flyg0n

Flygon connoisseur
Pronouns
She/her
Partners
  1. flygon
  2. swampert
  3. ho-oh
  4. crobat
  5. orbeetle
  6. joltik
  7. salandit
  8. tyrantrum
  9. porygon
Hana nodded in agreement with the strange chimera like pokemon (was that a pokemon?) "Er... Hazel, was it? Hazel is right. We need to not all reveal all of our cards. I can agree that secrecy is critical."
 

Inkedust

Harbinger of Sunrise
Location
Pokémon Square
Pronouns
she/her
Partners
  1. ninetales-inkedust
  2. solgaleo-inkedust
  3. xerneas
  4. zoroark-inkedust
  5. zoroark
Altair grew more frustrated and frustrated with each passing conversation which reached its peak when he got hit by an unparalleled sense of deja vu.

"Oi!" he barked at the fat man. "You only accused the strange looking creature because he hurt your foot? For fucks sake, grow a damn pair. This entire runaround amounts to nothing more than a complete waste of time." Altair shook his head and let out a long, drawn out sigh. "But at this point, I don't think you're scum no longer.

"I've seen this shit play out before. We get an innocent—unfamiliar with the game—who is thinks that they're such a damn genius that they decide to pull of some amazing gambit that will go off flawlessly only that it doesn't and whoops! now the entire town suspects you, forcing you to come clean. It's something that reads more like a genuine rookie mistake than a Mafia ploy. Mafia plan things out behind the scenes and were probably using this situation to their advantage.

"Could everyone also shut their damn yaps about what supposed powers or information they've gotten unless it's absolutely necessary!? You're giving the killers free targets and more room for them to lie."

[[Also I don't think I need to explain why Abra is cleared from Homestar's accusations. If Kent is one of the Lovers, like Abra implies, then we really shouldn't mislynch them because oops! free Mafia/Serial Killer kill.

I'm also not too keen on abstaining from voting today either—I will if I have to (if no new, substantial information/leads pop up, forcing us to pick essentially at random)—but we're already down two innocents, making this a lot more risky unlike previous games where abstaining D1 was cheaper because of no N0 deaths.]]
 

HelloYellow17

Gym Leader
Pronouns
She/Her
Partners
  1. suicune
  2. umbreon
  3. mew
  4. lycanroc-wes
  5. leafeon-rui
"We have told our people to keep their powers secret for as long as they can. The bad people will be trying to guess who they are. Every person who says the don't have a power makes that guess easier and easier to make! That is why I did not want to say I had no power until I had to explain how I knew who got the notes, as if it could not just be inferred by paying attention."

Wes folded his arms with a sigh. “All right. Fine. You have a point.” Gods, he just wanted to figure this out as soon as possible. But he supposed it wouldn’t do to be reckless about it.

[[Aight, you make a good point. I think I’m just being too overeager and chomping at the bit for more info to work with lol 🙃 I apologize for pushing this and retract my earlier statement. I need to be more patient and remind myself that this is not fast-paced game but a more gradual one!]]
 

HelloYellow17

Gym Leader
Pronouns
She/Her
Partners
  1. suicune
  2. umbreon
  3. mew
  4. lycanroc-wes
  5. leafeon-rui
[[I also sincerely apologize if I rubbed anybody the wrong way. Didn’t mean to be pushy but I realize it most likely came off that way. Sorry.]]
 

Dragonfree

Moderator
Staff
Location
Iceland
Pronouns
she/her/hers
Partners
  1. butterfree
  2. mightyena
  3. charizard
  4. scyther-mia
  5. vulpix
  6. slugma
  7. chinchou
Jean hopelessly watched the accusations fly back and forth, increasingly confused. In the end she just leaned miserably against Hazel, covering her ears.

[[Ohhhh my god

I wrote down like a hundred lines of notes about the whole Homestar/AbraPunk debacle and then it turns out most of that is basically irrelevant fffffff

I was going to point out here that we don't necessarily know that Namo GMs every role exactly like the wiki says, and we can't rely on contradictions with the wiki to assert as a fact that someone is lying - heck, even if Namo'd intended to follow the wiki exactly, serial killer showing up as vanilla to a rolecop is exactly the sort of obscure unexpected detail that I can easily picture myself as GM just obliviously not checking before giving a result. I was also going to point out that in fact Homestar did suggest voting out AbraPunk in-RP prior to Shiny Phantump's role explanation post (although it was indeed somewhat oddly late)! Right here. I know this is all exactly moot now since the rolecop claim was in fact a lie, and there were other reasons to suspect the claim, I just don't want to trash everything I was thinking all day okay

I don't reeeally like Homestar's bulletproof claim, but everything lines up better if it's true than if he's a mafia rolecop with a genuine serial killer check on AbraPunk (which I think is the only alternative that makes even a modicum of sense; by all means challenge this if you think otherwise). The latter plan would have required the mafia to fail to think their plan very far, trading off their rolecop (one of the best ways they have to find the cop) for the serial killer (whom they could just nightkill and be done with it) and a chance at the town rolecop, otherwise just getting inevitably temporary town cred that the actual town rolecop would inevitably fight against. It's possible the mafia could have done that out of shortsightedness, but it seems a really weird thing for them to go for on day one, when they could just nightkill the serial killer and keep trying to hunt down power roles using... their rolecop. On the other hand, Homestar's gambit doesn't make a huge amount of sense either as stated - it's just a lot easier for a single player to decide to do a weird gambit than a whole mafia team to decide to do a weird galaxy brain strat instead of something obvious and straightforward. As Shiny Phantump points out, the mafia's hardly going to target a supposed rolecop who just got a town player lynched for them - it only makes sense if Homestar genuinely believed AbraPunk would legitimately turn out to be a serial killer (and specifically a serial killer, since even if AbraPunk were mafia, the mafia would immediately know that Homestar was lying about being a rolecop). Or, I guess, if Homestar was unaware that people's alignment is revealed upon death, or assumed that the serial killer would flip as town? Any input there?

I'm disinclined to automatically trust AbraPunk's lover claim. That doesn't mean I suspect her - there is zero basis for doing so if we believe Homestar is bulletproof - but just because she claimed lovers under immense pressure doesn't mean it's true; if Homestar simply stumbled upon a scum player with this gambit, then claiming lover is absolutely something she could do as a desperate effort to not get lynched by making herself too risky to kill. So I don't think this should really move the needle on AbraPunk from null - but obviously I don't think we should lynch her either without actual evidence that she's scum.

Asking for everyone to reveal all their information immediately is something that helps mafia, yeah - we don't actually want to narrow down who has power roles for them unnecessarily! Lying as town is one thing, but concealing information as town is not suspicious unless there's a really specific reason they ought to have revealed the information.

I'm going to reread my notes and see if I can work out some kind of readlist probably before deciding how to vote? Not 100% sure if I'll get it done tonight, getting a bit of a headache and this has taken far too long already, but.]]
 

Sinderella

Angy Tumbleweed
Staff
Location
In Guzma's Closet
Pronouns
She/Her
Partners
  1. sylveon-shiny
  2. gothitelle
  3. froslass
  4. chandelure
  5. mimikyu
Wes folded his arms with a sigh. “All right. Fine. You have a point.” Gods, he just wanted to figure this out as soon as possible. But he supposed it wouldn’t do to be reckless about it.
“It’s understandable to want to have all the pieces, though. But we should really tiptoe here.”

[[You’re good Yellow!! I totally get wanting to throw everything out into the open to rifle through it. It happens!]]
 

Dragonfree

Moderator
Staff
Location
Iceland
Pronouns
she/her/hers
Partners
  1. butterfree
  2. mightyena
  3. charizard
  4. scyther-mia
  5. vulpix
  6. slugma
  7. chinchou
[[Bullet points on that, because beginner mafia:
- oh my god
- we can't necessarily assume everything on the wiki applies here
- I don't like Homestar's bulletproof gambit but it's probably the truth
- AbraPunk is not proven lover
- town should conceal information sometimes
- I don't know how to vote yet since the entire AbraPunk/Homestar debacle amounted to nothing but I took a lot of notes on how the discussion on it played out, maybe I can glean something from them]]
 

Namohysip

Dragon Enthusiast
Staff
Partners
  1. flygon
  2. charizard
  3. milotic
  4. zoroark-soda
  5. sceptile
  6. marowak
  7. jirachi
  8. meganium
Diyem was staring down at Astrid, eyes narrowing with suspicion. "I have no idea who you are." And then, without so much as another word or a hint of recognition, he turned his attention to everyone else as more chains formed around those who were being marked by votes.

"There seems to be a few things that are uncertain," Diyem said, looking over his notes. "Some of these things, you are better off asking me telepathically so nobody else can hear you. There are restrictions on my actions that bar me from stating things publicly, as it will confirm your powers if I did so. However, unless I missed something said on the information sheet, your powers should operate as they are listed there." Diyem looked over a seemingly blank piece of paper, like he was reviewing notes.

"There is one thing I wasn't aware of," he said. "Apparently, 'informed' is a role one can get, or a modifier. I hadn't disclosed that on the original letter. Thankfully, I had also left an opening to state that additional roles may be added depending on how many spirits I gathered. So I suppose I didn't truly lie. But by now, it seems quite clear, so I can safely confirm that, yes, vanilla town and mafia all gained a single 'informed' piece of information. Since both mafia and vanilla alike gained this, and it is relatively easy to fabricate such information, I doubt it will be of much use one way or the other for proving innocence.

"To add to that..."

Diyem paced, reading through the notes again. "For the guardian spirits that are floating above you, this is meant to be a teaching exercise as well as a proper ritual. Therefore, I am obligated now and then by contract..." He paused, like he was bracing himself. He wasn't going to enjoy this. He waved his hand beside himself, and from the darkness formed... a chalkboard. White. In Diyem's hand was a piece of charcoal. Then, several more pieces of charcoal floated in front of him, all writing simultaneously.

Mafia Tutorial, Part 1: Basics and Strategies

"By now, it is clear that we have a wide variety of spirits with us for this ritual," Diyem said, starting to write out various notes that corresponded with what he was saying. "Some are more skilled than others, while some are completely new to how these rituals operate. It is therefore my duty to inform the less experienced of common strategies found in mafia, one way or another.

"As everyone knows, in simple mafia games such as these, the win conditions are simple. Let your side be the last one standing, or otherwise make it so that is the only thing possible. For example, if the mafia hold a majority and there is no way to stop them from voting everyone else off... they win, because they will inevitably become the last ones standing. If the mafia and a serial killer, if there is one, are all eliminated, and only town remains, then they, too, win, as there is nobody left standing. That is the endgame for mafia.

"And, of course, not all players are created equal. Different ones will have different roles and powers. Otherwise, the mafia amy as well just pick randomly and be done with it. Generally speaking, the mafia seeks to eliminate all roles that are dangerous to them, or would impede their progress. Cops, and other roles such as role cops, are known as 'Investigative' roles. These are, generally, the most directly dangerous roles for the mafia, and they often want to eliminate them first. Doctors are trickier; they are classified as 'Protective' roles, for obvious reasons. Because they themselves can protect, they impede mafia progress, and are also something that the mafia would want to get rid of. Neither of these roles are less valuable than a basic villager.

"This is where some gambits come into play. While I will not speak for how this has gone for roles in this ritual, it is common practice for a villager to make a gambit to falsely claim one role in an effort to attract mafia attention away from the actual role. This comes with the risk of drawing ire from mafia and town alike, possibly being voted off instantly and not having the chance to draw mafia ire whatsoever.

"Alternatively, mafia can utilize a goon if they feel they are disposable enough to make a false claim, and draw out the real one by doing so so they have a target at night. This is another gambit, but on the mafia's side. Ultimately, the advantage mafia holds over town is information; the more information town has, the stronger they become against mafia. Therefore, it is always in the mafia's best interest to remove the roles that grant more information, and it is in the town's best interest to keep them hidden or protected for as long as possible.

"But, of course, in a game such as this, there are rarely certainties and there are always exceptions. Social deception games inherently mask the truth; to town, rarely is anything fully confirmed. It is a luxury to have 'incontrovertible' information that you yourself are not directly told privately.

"In the end... perhaps you can trust nobody."

Diyem snapped his claws and a copy of his information was distributed to the others. He turned around and returned to the edge of the caverns. "In any case, we are in the middle of the day. Here are how things currently stand."

Midday votes (counted by people who vote for someone in bold lettering.)

Kent: 4 (Homestar, Wind, Equi, Fuse)
Mike: 6 (Flyg0n, Phant, Perseph, Yellow, Abra, Sinderella)
 

unrepentantAuthor

A cat that writes stories.
Location
UK
Pronouns
they/she
Partners
  1. purrloin-salem
  2. sneasel-dusk
  3. luz-companion
  4. brisa-companion
  5. meowth-laura
  6. delphox-jesse
  7. mewtwo
  8. zeraora
Hana groaned and facepalmed. "Has no one considered that if you claim that Kent is lover you're downing two innocents?"

[[Saying you don't trust someone doesn't mean you're voting for them. My take was closer to 'I think this player's actions are a liability to town' than 'I think this player is antitown'.]]

[[If any of this is even true, which I don't believe it is, not huge on a supposed townie ousting someone based purely on spite and RP. Also bulle proof is a pretty convenient claim. My vote stands]]

[[A claim being 'convenient' doesn't make it more likely to be untrue. Also, it makes perfect sense to identify a belligerent player who is distracting from the game as potential antitown and creating a bandwagon to lynch them.]]

download20210802215433.png "Thanks, ah, Hazel... And sorry for getting so loud! It's just very frustrating listening to everybody get mad at Innocents for not helping narrow down the power roles for the Mafia, and then staying mad at Innocents who do speak up because of 'suspicious timing'! It's just making things harder for the Innocents. It might not mean those people are killers, but it is unhelpful!"

Salem licked the back of her hand and slicked back her scalp fur a little. Some habits were hard to erase, and besides being comforting and familiar in this strange place and circumstance, there were clever, interesting, strong pokémon taking an interest in what she had to say, and she'd picked up on a little vanity from humans by now...

...Anyway.

download20210802225306.png "Mike's explanation makes a lot of sense. I don't think it was a very good strategy, but it doesn't seem like he's lying! It seems like Kent might not be a killer of any kind after all, but all this distraction and aggression and that sort of thing is really unhelpful to the Innocents. It gets in the way of catching any killers, which makes it the sort of thing a killer would do, or else a town player who isn't much of a team player! So, uh... Yeah. It makes sense for Mike to want to vote for him."

[[So what have we learned? Think about who else made a serious effort to identify behaviour that matches how Mafia members would behave, and who behaved like possible Mafia.]]

download20210802230915.png "I think I've figured out a few people who are very probably trustworthy! Especially Ebony and Hazel, I have a really good feeling about both of them! I'm a lot less confident about who the most suspicious people are... Right now it's easy to believe that people doing things that are unhelpful are just really excited to catch killers and haven't realised what will happen when they do those things. I hope that, maybe, we can all keep level heads now and try to catch the Mafia! And with that in mind..."

download20210802231614.png "Everyone's contributed at least a little to the game so far except the sylveon! I think! There are definitely reasons she might be quiet besides being a killer trying to escape notice, but we can't assume that she's not one!"

[[ @SparklingEspeon are you super busy or smth, bud? ]]
 

Shiny Phantump

Through Dream, I Travel
Location
Hallownest
Pronouns
She/Her
Partners
  1. sylveon
  2. absol-mega
  3. silvally-psychic
  4. ninetales-phantump
  5. cosmog
  6. gallade-phantump
  7. ceruledge-phantump
Jean hopelessly watched the accusations fly back and forth, increasingly confused. In the end she just leaned miserably against Hazel, covering her ears.
"Sorry if we're scaring you, friend."



I am about to go eat and will probably be able to come back one more time but I don't want to have my old vote sitting there if I don't.

Hello Vote: Abstain my old friend. There's nothing bloody else better I can do, is there?
 

AbraPunk

Cosmic Guardian
Location
The Circle
Pronouns
he/him
Partners
  1. luxio
all this distraction and aggression and that sort of thing is really unhelpful to the Innocents. It gets in the way of catching any killers, which makes it the sort of thing a killer would do, or else a town player who isn't much of a team player! So, uh... Yeah. It makes sense for Mike to want to vote for him."

Kent just glanced up at the... Mikemon. He shrugged half-heartedly. "Sorry. Gonna try and... not be like that tomorrow, assuming I live." His tone was very shockingly quiet and sincere.
 

Equitial

Ace Trainer
Pronouns
he/him
Partners
  1. espurr
  2. inkay
  3. woobat
  4. ralts
[[
not sure if I'll make a real post tonight, but in light of Homestar's confession unvote: Kurt/AbraPunk
]]
 

HelloYellow17

Gym Leader
Pronouns
She/Her
Partners
  1. suicune
  2. umbreon
  3. mew
  4. lycanroc-wes
  5. leafeon-rui
[[Oh jeez I really don’t know what to think. The more people say it, the more I have to agree that Mike probably isn’t mafia because the strategy doesn’t check out agh. Buuuut does anybody think it’s possible he’s the SK? I guess I just don’t want to believe he’s actually town LOL

I don’t know what to think. But I also don’t want to abstain because if there’s a chance he is the SK we would do best to get rid of him ASAP. Remember how quickly everybody died last game?? Yeah. I don’t want that to happen AGAIN. So for now I’m keeping my vote on Homestar but I’m definitely open to discussion about it.]]
 

unrepentantAuthor

A cat that writes stories.
Location
UK
Pronouns
they/she
Partners
  1. purrloin-salem
  2. sneasel-dusk
  3. luz-companion
  4. brisa-companion
  5. meowth-laura
  6. delphox-jesse
  7. mewtwo
  8. zeraora
[[Will post readlist tomorrow hopefully. Anyway, just use process of elimination to work out who's least likely to be town, kind of thing.]]
 

AbraPunk

Cosmic Guardian
Location
The Circle
Pronouns
he/him
Partners
  1. luxio
[[ shiiiiit I just realized that, if very specific events play out, we could have four deaths this upcoming day/night ]]
Remember how quickly everybody died last game??
 

HelloYellow17

Gym Leader
Pronouns
She/Her
Partners
  1. suicune
  2. umbreon
  3. mew
  4. lycanroc-wes
  5. leafeon-rui
[[ shiiiiit I just realized that, if very specific events play out, we could have four deaths this upcoming day/night ]]
[[Exactly. Which is why I worry about abstaining because that just leaves everything in the mafia’s hands. Though I also don’t want to mislynch anybody either AGH I am not smart enough for this game]]
 

Homestar!

Mikeposter/Galaxy-Brainer
Location
NorCal
Pronouns
He/Him
Partners
  1. nidoqueen
[[Exactly. Which is why I worry about abstaining because that just leaves everything in the mafia’s hands. Though I also don’t want to mislynch anybody either AGH I am not smart enough for this game]]
[[NEITHER AM I, APPARENTLY.]]
 

Homestar!

Mikeposter/Galaxy-Brainer
Location
NorCal
Pronouns
He/Him
Partners
  1. nidoqueen
"Have we looked at who died on the first night, and who was talking to them on the zero-th day?" Mike raised his voice a bit, trying to draw them all out from their papers and rules. It was more confusion to add to the confusion, sure, but they were running out of time.

"We lost a Luc--- Ferry," Mike almost hiccuped out the name, as if it forced itself into his brain as he spoke, "and... PNS-NT." That time he waited for his brain to fill in the information.

"Two innocents. Neither of which were the Silver--- I mean, the Serial Killer," that correction was Mike's. He needed to adapt to Mafia terminology sooner rather than later.

"Who was talking to Ferry on the zero-th day? And to MSN-BC? It was a bit of a hodge-podge, and I was definitely, uh, not taking this very seriously."
 

Flyg0n

Flygon connoisseur
Pronouns
She/her
Partners
  1. flygon
  2. swampert
  3. ho-oh
  4. crobat
  5. orbeetle
  6. joltik
  7. salandit
  8. tyrantrum
  9. porygon
[[Nobody had powers on day 0 though so idk if thats actually useful]]

"Not sure if that would actually make much difference. This... game seems to rely on powers beyond the usual sort."
 
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