[Day 2] Odile's 7 Deadly Scumtells Mafia

[Panoramic_Vacuum]

[[sorry, not arguing that you're not right in that it's probably me getting wound up about nothing. But I did want to acknowledge that I'm not crazy, and it *does* say in the text of the sign up post that Cynical and Inverse *are* possible.]]

 

[Dragonfree]

Gabriel took a deep breath, rubbing his forehead as he reviewed the initial information. "Okay, yeah, this is confusing. Odile's warnings for what the game might involve include inverse and cynical, but then they're not in the list of modifiers? Not sure what that's about. The list does include godfather/miller roles, so maybe that's what it is, I get told I'm a basic bitch but actually I appear as mafia to any inspection roles? Which is a known variant on miller, considered bastard but we were told this was a bastard game. Would explain why basic bitch is even in there when the game is supposed to be role madness.

"Like I said, Morgan's play doesn't make a whole lot of sense as mafia by default, because that'd just be a way to get yourself killed when the target turns out town. I was briefly entertaining the thought this morning of whether that's why she had this kind of weird thing about being a rolecop but getting the alignment too - sow just enough weirdness about her result to make it potentially make sense she wasn't lying, just messed with somehow. But it still seems like a stretch and a weird gambit to pull just to eliminate me. Like, in theory since I was going after her yesterday they could have decided she was likely to keep catching heat and they might as well pull this to take out a townie and make sure she lives at least one more day? But, again, that just feels like kind of a stretch.

"The really concerning possibility is she's a condemner who's supposed to eliminate me, and I just didn't get told about it, which I didn't realize was possible at first but upon reading seems to be the normal way for a condemnee to work. And again, I guess that explains why I'd be told I'm a basic bitch, and why that role is in there in the first place. That'd mean Morgan's a third party who'd do anything to get me eliminated, and then it makes sense she'd be kinda waffly on day one and then immediately claim to have some sort of definitive inspection on me after the first night phase, but with a role that's less likely to be counterclaimed than actual cop since rolecops are more commonly mafia and probably wouldn't counterclaim a town rolecop. That'd mean if I get eliminated we all lose the game and she wins. If that's possible, then that's the most pressing thing to avoid here.

"So, like, let's please think about this for a minute. It'd be bad to lose a real alignment-plus-role-cop if I'm just a miller or something, but it's worse to lose the game. How do we resolve this?" He massaged his temples. "Obviously one way is to kill her first, and then we can at least see if she flips third party. Maybe that's the easiest way to go, given if she is legit the mafia's probably going for her tonight anyway. Another way would be to look elsewhere today and then we're good if one of us gets killed in the night? Which, again, like, mafia's likely to go for Morgan either way, right?"

 

[unrepentantAuthor]

Matthias frowned, then grimaced as if he'd tasted something unexpectedly sour.

"At first I thought your reasoning was suspect... Then I realised where our assumptions differed."

if I get eliminated we all lose the game

Standard Version
The Condemner leaves the game in a win when a specific player (the Condemnee), which is only known to the Condemner, is eliminated. If the Condemnee dies in any other way, or if the game ends while the Condemnee is still alive, the Condemner leaves the game in a loss.

Use & Balance
Condemner should be balanced like a guaranteed elimination on the Condemnee [...]
In the case of [...] multiple Condemnees [...] more on par with a Survivor.

Play Advice
On Day 2, claim Cop with a guilty result on your target. By the time they figure out you're lying, you will have already won.
If this causes the real Cop to counterclaim, you're probably best off immediately claiming Condemner and hoping the Town helps you out just to get you out of the picture.

"You see, my understanding of the Condemner is not that we all lose if they win. Rather, they have an independent win condition which can be achieved alongside another faction's victory."

Matthias rubbed his chin, contemplative.

"Interesting that you leapt on an interpretation which allowed you to insist we couldn't possibly kill you on the off-chance that Morgan is a Condemner. I don't think it's an especially likely possibility... and I don't think we do all lose if it were true."

The Greninja's vote lay unchanged.

 

[Dragonfree]

"You see, my understanding of the Condemner is not that we all lose if they win. Rather, they have an independent win condition which can be achieved alongside another faction's victory."

Matthias rubbed his chin, contemplative.

"Interesting that you leapt on an interpretation which allowed you to insist we couldn't possibly kill you on the off-chance that Morgan is a Condemner. I don't think it's an especially likely possibility... and I don't think we do all lose if it were true."

The Greninja's vote lay unchanged.

"That's the thing, she literally said that's how the condemner works in this game! And that also makes me pretty sure there is a condemner, because the fact she even bothered to specify she'd be making this modification to the role suggests she was thinking about it more than just putting it in the list as filler!

Xe Who is Doomed (Condemnee)

• Special Note: Despite what this page says, in the case of this game, should there be a Condemnee in the game and they are eliminated, the corresponding Condemner will win, ending the game.

 

[unrepentantAuthor]

"Oh."

...

"Well, that changes things. I do beg your pardon."

[[This is what I fucking get for posting on my fucking phone while multitasking. Embarrassing. My apologies, everyone, I need to sleep on this. Free might actually be fucking right about this and I need to figure out whether I'm happy to take the risk or not.]]

 

[Sinderella]

Soooooo much discourse and still soooooooo much time left. It made Odile's heart soar. It might not have looked that way, with the way she nonchalantly scrubbed at her claws with a nail file. But really, she was having a great time watching everyone squirm under the pressure of her game.

Being a little less than halfway into the phase, she felt like now would be a good time to check in...

---

About 24 Hours Remain​

Dragonfree/Gabriel - 3 (Shiny Phantump/Morgan, Chibi Pika/Baraz, unrepentantAuthor/Matthias)
Shiny Phantump/Morgan - 1 (Dragonfree/Gabriel)
No Vote - 7 (Seren/Kimiko, HelloYellow17/Neo, lyrical/Pleione, yiran/Grovyle, Panoramic_Vacuum/Wallace, Canisaries/Red, EonDuoLatios/Peridot)

---

"Friendly reminder that I don't like silent players," Odile hissed in warning. "Better speak up soon before your tongue ends up on a kebab. Haven't had one of those in ages..."

---

[[Kind reminder for my players that you must make two (2) posts a day! With things under way, I will not be counting posts that don't contribute to the game (i.e. RP-only posts with no indication of reads, plays, theories, etc., one-sentence posts with no indication of reads, plays, theories, etc.) toward your quota number--I expect you to ACTIVELY PLAY THE GAME; not just posts just to post.

Those of you who haven't met the post quota yet (without notifying me as to why) will be receiving a warning from me shortly :)]]​

 

[HelloYellow17]

Neo leaped out of the void where he’d been sleeping, ready to start another day, and froze for a moment when he was greeted with…sunshine. And warmth. And grass. Grass!!



He dropped and rolled in the warm, lush greenery, paws flailing in the air as he purred. This was way, way better than the previous place already!

Out of curiosity, he sauntered over to the water and peeked at it warily. The stuff in the other place didn’t get him wet, so did that mean this water wouldn’t, either?

He cautiously dipped an experimental paw into the water, then immediately jerked back and flicked the droplets away. Then, experiment failed, he hissed at the water for good measure. For having the audacity.

He glanced around as others started to appear. He’d have to warn Growly-Dog about the water! Neo hoped his new friend had slept well. They’d work together even more today and sniff out the Bad Guys togeth—



Growly-Dog wasn’t here.



He couldn’t have…could he…?

Odile’s voice greeted them in her usual mischievous way, then she gave them the news. Growly-Dog and Murder-Bolts were gone. And Growly-Dog had been a Good Guy, just like Neo had thought.


His ears and tail slowly drooped. Neo sat down in the grass with a thump and whined sadly at his paws.

[[Hi hello, holy CRAP we’ve had some bombs dropped in here. I’m tossing in a little RP post just for funsies and will do some actual Sleuth Posting in a bit!]]

 

[Chibi Pika]

Baraz listened to Gabriel's defense, his expression unchanging.


"I am unconvinced. I have already said why I believe Morgan's report was real. Her reaction to discovering the likely truth behind the 'double snitch' was too genuine, and did not feel like a ruse. If she had meant to construct a false 'rolecop' result, she would not have made it say 'goon.'" (Unbeknownst to Baraz, it was also quite common for rolecops to be innocent in this particular realm. His very own guardian had been one before.)

...But then there was the matter of the condemner.

Xe Who is Doomed (Condemnee)

• Special Note: Despite what this page says, in the case of this game, should there be a Condemnee in the game and they are eliminated, the corresponding Condemner will win, ending the game.

This revelation disturbed him. Unbeknownst to him, his guardian was disturbed too. However, his instincts were telling him that there was more to consider here.

"Remember what our host has said of this game. We were promised chaos. She has obviously taken such pride in crafting this game. Would she really have designed it to end in such an anticlimactic way? Such a boring way?"

This role, the condemner, was regarded to be a near-guaranteed win. Including a version that would end the game was tantamount to ensuring that every other aspect of the setup would fail to show its teeth. Their host wanted to see chaos, and designing the game this way would impale the chaos before it might ever begin.

Including it in the list would certainly breed paranoia, however.

And again, there was still the issue that if Morgan were a condemner, why would she have crafted such a strange rolecop result?

Obviously one way is to kill her first, and then we can at least see if she flips third party. Maybe that's the easiest way to go, given if she is legit the mafia's probably going for her tonight anyway.

Baraz's instincts were telling him that presenting the first and simplest solution as eliminating the claimed cop was never, never a good sign. In this realm, there had once been a game in which a doctor's claim was suspect, and the mafia had oh-so-helpfully suggested that the easiest way to determine her truthfulness was to simply eliminate her. If she flipped town (which she of course would have), this would mean that the other doctor would then also end up on the sacrificial altar. So helpful!

"You also forget that the enemy does not possess a so-called 'strongman.' Morgan's death is not as sealed as you claim."

It'd be bad to lose a real alignment-plus-role-cop if I'm just a miller or something

Baraz tilted his head. "'If' you were a miller? Your letter would have read 'Xe, the Poor Unfortunate Soul' if you were a so-called 'miller'. Why are you speaking as though you don't know?"

"My vote remains." He was interested to see how Morgan would react, however.

 

[Shiny Phantump]

Morgan was, of course, not personally concerned that she might be a condemner. She was, however, starting to dread the possibility that Gabriel was a Condemnee. Nocitlālin's condemnee in particular. Although her Guardian had gone over the last of these game, one run by Odile's buddies, and it was another example of a role madness game with exactly one vanilla mafia goon, which made her feel a little better...

[[It was even Free who was assigned to be The Token Vanila Goon in Skull Mafia, because time is a flat fucking circle I guess.]]

"I don't imagine it was particularly likely that there's a Mafia large enough to have a fair chance at winning, a third-party faction in the crab, plus a second third party faction so powerful it could end the game instantly. But if we're worries about it, I do see several possible solutions. The first is the simplest, we take advantage of the clause the specifics of how the Condemner wins: 'If the Condemnee is eliminated while the Condemner is alive and on the Condemnee's wagon, the Condemner wins.' I could personally unvote Gabriel should we have enough other people willing to vote for him, something that should cause me to lose the game were I a real Condemner."

But if she were worried about a Condemner, she wouldn't necessarily want to trust Satan to be playing it that close to the book.

"A Condemner also doesn't win if their Condemnee is nightkilled. Could try to leave it to a Vigilante. Hell, if I don't wake up we at least know I'm not a Condemner, even if we don't know if I'm sane. I could tolerate that only because it's equally likely to happen anyway. Should we do that, I think we should take out someone whose flip might give us information on your alignment to help inform questions of my sanity should you survive."

She smirked at Peridot. It was reassuring that Baraz also bared some open suspicion towards him, too.

"I think your death would tell us a lot about your potential partner, and I values his thoughts more highly. While your guardian's last showing, missing the bus to claim and then shading everyone who didn't, wasn't a tour de force, it was at least coherent. Like, the concept that three people all claiming to be town with your exact role could be suspect is a principle that at exists in my reality..."

"This game, your performance has markedly slipped, presumably having disappeared into the same xth dimension that your one-sided chess game is taking place in. It's not just that I don't agree with your claims, I fundamentally have not understood the perspective behind any of the sentences you've said so far. I don't like it, and I increasingly suspect it's because we really aren't playing the same game. I reiterate: If Gabriel knew that, it seems likely to be the reason why he was so quick to come after you when you first started casting votes for reasons that didn't make sense."

The wyrm had, thus far, also remained doggedly loyal to Gabriel. Not only mirroring his vote immediately, but doing so for illogical reasons that appeared to mutate in self-contradictory ways under scrutiny. She was suspect for voting, and suspect for not voting, and suspect for claiming. But an incriminating result against Gabriel? Meh. No thoughts on the matter. Morgan wasn't keen to let that one slide without further scrutiny, even if the town did still settle on continuing to eliminate Gabriel.

"But the easiest way to confirm Gabriel's alignment is still just to kill him personally, and then deal with you based on how he flips. Doing it in reverse would only be a compromise with people who are skeptical of me."

[[In conclusion: I am willing to personally unvote or to eliminate someone else (Particularly, for Eon). Eliminating Gabriel is still by far my preferred way to spend the day as I know it would at worst eliminate a vanilla townie while confirming my mechanical insanity. (Like Chibi just said, Miller is a named role here and I'd expect it to be declared to the player and especially to show up in my result. Sanity is the only explanation I can see for Townie Gabriel.) I understand other people who don't know my alignment may not be as keen, which is why I'm willing to explore those options... I'm honestly only entertaining it because Jackie seems uncertain, and Jackie's a level-headed person who seems townie enough for me to take their concerns seriously.]]

 

[EonDuoLatios]

"A Condemner also doesn't win if their Condemnee is nightkilled. Could try to leave it to a Vigilante. Hell, if I don't wake up we at least know I'm not a Condemner, even if we don't know if I'm sane. I could tolerate that only because it's equally likely to happen anyway. Should we do that, I think we should take out someone whose flip might give us information on your alignment to help inform questions of my sanity should you survive."

She smirked at Peridot. It was reassuring that Baraz also bared some open suspicion towards him, too. [...]

"I think your death would tell us a lot about your potential partner, and I values his thoughts more highly. While your guardian's last showing, missing the bus to claim and then shading everyone who didn't, wasn't a tour de force, it was at least coherent. Like, the concept that three people all claiming to be town with your exact role could be suspect is a principle that at exists in my reality..." [...]

"But the easiest way to confirm Gabriel's alignment is still just to kill him personally, and then deal with you based on how he flips. Doing it in reverse would only be a compromise with people who are skeptical of me."

[[In conclusion: I am willing to personally unvote or to eliminate someone else (Particularly, for Eon). Eliminating Gabriel is still by far my preferred way to spend the day as I know it would at worst eliminate a vanilla townie while confirming my mechanical insanity. (Like Chibi just said, Miller is a named role here and I'd expect it to be declared to the player and especially to show up in my result. Sanity is the only explanation I can see for Townie Gabriel.) I understand other people who don't know my alignment may not be as keen, which is why I'm willing to explore those options... I'm honestly only entertaining it because Jackie seems uncertain, and Jackie's a level-headed person who seems townie enough for me to take their concerns seriously.]]

"I think I agree with you", Peridot conceded. "It's possible -- and even likely -- that Gabriel is pulling the stunt of claiming he's a condemnee to not get voted out: even if he was, he wouldn't know...and, well, if the game ends because of it, it is what it is."

He continued: "Before you continue making allegations about me, I just want to make it clear that I'm Vanilla Town. If you don't believe me, rolecop me at night and see for your own eyes. If you lie and they vote me out, everyone will see which faction I'm actually on, and your head would be next."

"And it won't matter if I die, right? I'm vanilla town. You can do without me."

[[@Sinderella vote Gabriel.]]

 

[EonDuoLatios]

[[Also I swear if I get voted out as town for not claiming early I'm gonna crashout]]

 

[Seren]

It wouldn't be good strategy to tell everyone here that is scum...to kill her next, right?

At this point, everyone knows that this is a horrid play if she truly was rolecop, since he'll be on the chopping block soon

"I... what?" Kimiko blinked in confusion. "Yes, obviously claiming rolecop makes her a mafia target if it's true... but like, she knows this? Claiming anything so brazenly like that is a risk, but one she obviously feels is worth it. Like, look at it this way, a 1-for-1 trade with a mafia member is a win for town; if we keep up that pace the entire game, mafia gets eliminated before town does, so we win. Sure, Morgan herself would be out, but her team still wins, and that's the end goal; it's fun to survive until the end, but so long as town wins, the individual specific people still standing don't matter in the end. So unless Morgan flips third party... this is a perfectly logical roleclaim to me..."

I actually decided to be a bit mean and check EonDuoLatios’ last online status when the above post went live, since I know I spent my first time as scum bouncing my plays off my teammates and made my greatest blunder when they were both offline.

Kimiko made a face, somewhere in between a frown and a grimace. Leave it to a ghost to come up with a sneaky loophole.

[[ I'll be honest, trying to figure out when someone's online and what they're doing feels a bit... iffy to me? Sort of like why we disabled emote reacts on mafia games, it's using a forum feature that isn't really... gameplay to sort of cheat out what someone is up to and when? It's one thing if it's incidental, because god only knows how we'd be able to police this in the future, but it's another to go out of your way to see who's online and what they're doing. Idk. On the other hand, I... don't know how relevant it actually is? Maybe I'm just nitpicking, but I don't feel great about it either way. Less in a 'this is a scum move' and more of a 'this doesn't feel like its in the spirit of the game' sort of way. Maybe it's just me and no one else thinks anything of it. Either way, what's done is done, I guess. /insert shrug emote here ]]

“Kimiko, have I ever told you that you’re my favourite person here?

Weird time shenanigans aside, at least she got an answer to her question. "So, wait, let me get this straight... you think Gabriel and Peridot are both scum, and Peridot was scrambling to come up with a defense while everyone else was offline with no teammates to talk to? And Gabriel was throwing him under the bus by trying to scrutinize his nonsensical rambling?"

"Of course, I agreed to this before I knew it was just a game, or that my guardian would be... ugh, female."

Kimiko crossed her arms... the metagross was gone, only to be replaced by another murder-obsessed loon. And a creep, at that.

[[ Hey, hi, welcome, thanks for subbing! Don't worry about the 400IQ thing, my IQ is closer to 4 and I've had a good time, so. lol ]]

That'd mean if I get eliminated we all lose the game and she wins.

Another way would be to look elsewhere today and then we're good if one of us gets killed in the night?

Free might actually be fucking right about this and I need to figure out whether I'm happy to take the risk or not

Gabriel finally spoke up to defend himself, and Kimiko struggled to keep up with the back and forth - a side effect of the mind-fuckery going on, no doubt. Something something bastard modding and roles being purposely weird. It was strange that anyone in a role madness game was vanilla, though... unless there was some reason for it? (It sure would suck for the poor fucker who was expecting some cool ability only to have that dumped in their private notes.) Or, again, it was in there just for pure mind-fuckery. Wasn't Odile the God of Wrath, not Chaos? Kimiko's takeaway from all that boiled down to, there was the possibility that Morgan's read was still somehow inaccurate, and somehow that lead to... Morgan managing to win the game if they could get everyone to vote Gabriel out.

"Flat-out losing the game is a pretty big risk," she said with a sigh. "But if she's the condemner, then what do we think the metagross was? They're confirmed third party, but we didn't... really get to see anything from them. There wouldn't be multiple of the same role in the game, would there? And if we push this whole thing under the rug for one more night, then where do you propose we 'look elsewhere'?" The only relatively significant claim so far had been whatever Baraz had hinted at, and he sure seemed pleased that Morgan did not take whatever bait he'd set. Kimiko also eyed Peridot... if Morgan suspected the pair of them were in some way working together, then Peridot's flip would go a long way towards the ghost's credibility.

and, well, if the game ends because of it, it is what it is."

"Before you continue making allegations about me, I just want to make it clear that I'm Vanilla Town

"And it won't matter if I die, right? I'm vanilla town. You can do without me."

"What?" Kimiko choked. Morgan had the right idea to be suspicious of this one, it seemed. And if Gabriel was claiming to be a vanilla, there was zero chance that they were both vanilla. In a role madness game. .....Right? Right?

"That's... no. As I said before [[ top of this post ]] even a vanilla townie will count for numbers, role or no role. The very fact that you exist helps bolster town, and every townie we lose is one person closer to a game loss!" She shook her head, feeling a headache coming on. This was... an odd play to make coming from a scum perspective, inviting people to investigate them... but then, that's also what Baraz had done last night. But neither did they sound like town; that first line implies accepting a game loss, which just... wasn't the point of playing? It just didn't make sense, even for a confused townie.

Kimiko sighed deeply. "I can't believe the words that are coming out of my mouth, but... I'm putting my trust in the ghost. I don't trust you. Vote: Peridot." [[ @Sinderella ]] It was the safe play. Morgan made a strong case against Gabriel. But if the possibility existed that they'd all lose should he be taken out, she couldn't in good conscience go along with it. Not without further information, or until someone conclusively debunked the chance. On the other hand, if they were working together, then what was the harm in removing the latias first, especially if Gabriel was supposedly vanilla too?

[[ This is my nightly 'I don't know if I'll be able to catch up by deadline' effortpost; Will do my best to at least read everything at work and alter my vote if necessary, but for now, like Kimiko, I'd rather not simply hand over the game and call it good if there's even a remote possibility of that, and right now I see zero risk in targeting their implied partner-in-crime instead. ]]